This final Q & A session from the conference is not listed in the Trinity Pulpit catalogue, perhaps because the quality of the original recording was poor. The material is very practical and edifying however, so a couple of attempts have been made to correct for the extreme ‘muddiness’ with an electronic equalizer. The trade-off is that now there is quite a bit of hiss, but compared to the original recording, the words are much more discernible than they were previously.
Additionally, a text version has been created for "reading-along", below. There are a small number of sections that are still difficult to follow - these have been noted with question marks - please contact Eternal Life Ministries with any insights into what is being said at these places.
This recording has been made available, despite the obvious shortcomings, trusting that hungry souls who long for practical Biblical material and insight into this vital area of the Christian life will find sweetness even in the midst of this hissy bitterness. (Proverbs 27:7).
Directives to Singles: Questions & Answers. Albert N. Martin
(Note, the message starts in the middle of a submitted question, which Pastor Martin is reading):
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Question
“ ,,, considerations: Number one: the created order, the man or woman is attracted to someone who answers to them, that is, their “Adam” to their “Eve.” Does this not involve ,,, doesn’t this also include someone who answers to them in physical appearance? This seems to be different from the “super-star” syndrome you discussed.
The analogy of Scriptures: it must be granted that “beauty is vain,” etc., but the Bible does mention that Sarah, [Abraham’s] wife was beautiful, that Isaac’s servant found a beautiful woman; of Job — that his daughters were said to be beautiful. (and let’s see,,,)
I write this question in full realization that a woman who at first appears less beautiful than one (??) can be beautiful when she is known. I myself have experienced this more than once. Quite simply my question is this, what part does physical attractiveness play in finding someone answering to you?”
Answer:
Now again, this shows great wisdom. You see what the brother has done here? he sees some Biblical materials and he’s trying to reconcile them, and then he says “now what is the one common denominator that I’m looking for?” and then he states it. That’s a very good example of problem-solving. You take your Biblical data: “On the one hand this,,, on the other hand this,,, what is the real question?” and then seek to resolve it. Well I think the answer is quite clear, and let me just mix up the answer in terms of the order in which this is given.
The Scripture does mention that Abraham’s wife Sarah was beautiful, that Isaac’s wife was beautiful to look upon. Now the very fact that it mentions these women as beautiful, and hundreds of other women are not mentioned, it simply underscores what I’ve already stated: unusual or striking beauty is just that, it is the exception not the rule. If it were the rule it wouldn’t be mentioned. It doesn’t say: “and so-and-so took a woman who had two hands.” That’s a common denominator. But “he took a wife who was beautiful to look upon.” That set her apart from the average, you see? So that, again, the exception is not to be despised: if God gives to Abraham a beautiful woman named Sara, he's to receive her as a gift from God. But he is not to assume: “unless God gives me a beautiful woman I will not look at her twice.” So I think that’s the proper assessment of those who are mentioned as “beautiful.” Esther was a beauty queen: The Beauty Queen of Persia, she became. That’s exactly what she became, and it was just like a Miss America contest, and they picked her above all of the others.
Now, this leads us to this whole question: “Will God,,,” (and I touched on it earlier): “Will God direct me to someone who does not,,,” (for lack of a better term) “‘turn-me-on’ physically?” Well of course not, in the sense that God is not going to lead me to marry someone whose physical bearing is repulsive to me. No. The point I was making, and I think needs to be reiterated, is, “How can I tell if there will be the kind of legitimate attraction, unless I begin to know the whole person?” You see? Because any man who can be in the presence of a beautiful woman, whose got the right amount of flesh in the right place in the right arrangement, and not be stirred, just lacks hormones. He lacks hormones. Of course he does. So you see that initial stirring of physical attraction can be nothing but the stirring up of your hormones. And that’s a pretty shallow basis upon which to begin, or continue, or try to build a relationship: merely that your hormones get upset. So that I think the proper perspective is to look for those virtues that are Biblical, to pray more & more that God will give you eyes to behold what is true beauty, and then as you begin to develop a relationship, if it comes to the place where you begin to appreciate the true beauty of the person, male or female, and yet, there is just a sense of revulsion physically, then obviously God does not expect me to try to consummate a marriage in which you’re totally turned off by a person; that would be a form of cruelty.
So, “exactly what place then does physical attractiveness play in finding someone answering to you?” Well I think again I’ve in part answered that by saying, we should make ourselves as attractive as we can be with what we’ve got. Now you can never turn a Ford into a Cadillac; but you can sure put some nice hubcaps on it, you can polish it, you can change the oil, you can put some slip covers on it. It doesn’t need to look like a heap that’s ready to go to the graveyard, you see? And it’s amazing,,, again now,,, someone would say “do you think it’s wrong for a Christian girl to go to a beautician, and say ‘what’s the best thing to be done with my hair, in terms of my face,,’” ,,, I don’t think it’s wrong at all. And I’ve seen some girls who’ve been literally changed from Plain Janes into reasonably attractive girls simply by a change of hairstyle, a little judicious application of some rouge and lipstick, and a new wardrobe. And it’s been amazing what it’s done, without in any way losing one ounce of true Christian reserve and that holy veil, that a woman should have. Because — and this is where The Other Half of the Apple book will be helpful to you — she deals very very helpfully here: wanting to be attractive, and trying to appear sexy, are two different things. You don’t need to prove to fellas that you’re a woman, & that a woman’s anatomy is different from a man’s. As I told a group of young people this summer; there were some of those girls going around trying to give me an anatomy lesson every time they walk, & I said “girls, I understand basic human anatomy: I don’t need to have a lesson every time you walk by me.” That’s trying to be sexy. But a girl can be attractive, and do the best with what she’s got. And if she’s got too much, she can do something to lose some of it, you see? And if she doesn’t have enough, well she can wear the kind of clothing ,,, if she's ,, uh,,, . One of my daughters is probably going to be unusually tall & angular; we call her ,,, we call her ‘Spider’ , is our own little nick-name. That’s my Heidi — those of you who know her — and she’s only 11 but she’s already five-one or close to five-two; she’s getting close to her mummy. And certain type clothes, as it were, take the sharp edges off her bony elbows, and her bony shoulders, and her long doe-like legs. And as she gets older she’ll begin to mature & fill-out, granted, but,,, . Beth is the opposite; Beth is going to be more squat, built more to the ground. And already, as father & mother, we’re trying to make the girls conscious of this, so that when they dress, we’re trying to cultivate in Beth the realization that she’s going to have to dress in terms of the way God made her, and Heidi the way God made her; trying to get them to see that they are to do the best with what God has given them. And there’s nothing wrong with that. In fact it’s sinful not to do so; it’s a poor testimony. And so there is this matter of making ourselves more attractive. And the same way with you fellas; some of you, you’d do well to go to a hair-stylist and ask them, you know, “what’s the best thing to do with this mop of stuff I’ve got here?” And if you’re too dumpy, start doing some exercise, and invest a few bucks in some bar-bells, or a bull-worker, or something else, and begin to try to put a little solid muscle where your flab is. Now those are perfectly legitimate things; we have a stewardship of our physical frame, and we must continue to recognize that. Alright? I think if the person who submitted this question doesn’t feel it’s answered satisfactorily, I’ll be glad to meet with him or her afterwards, alright? Further questions, that you must have with all the material thrown at you ,,, yes?
Question:
“I've been told that if you want to know what a girl is like ,, (??) ,,, to see what her mother is like.”
Answer:
Alright. The question is, someone has been told “if you want to see what a girl is like, see what her mother is like.” Well, there’s an element of truth there, in that generally speaking a girl will be strongly influenced by the maternal, influence. But I would only say there’s an element of truth in there because there are too many other factors that enter into the picture; the major one being the measure of grace that God has given. Suppose the mother is an unconverted woman, and in her unconverted state, she shows her rebellion to God by being utterly insubordinate to her husband. She’s a veritable witch. She runs the show. She’s domineering. She’s bossy. Now here’s this girl you’re beginning to be interested in: she’s become a Christian. She’s seen in the Scripture that a woman’s role is one of submissiveness to her husband. She’s framing a totally different notion. She sees the things in her mother that sicken her as a Christian. It’d be totally unfair to judge that girl by her mother. Totally unfair. So that I think there’s only an element of truth in that, but “only.” And I would never make that a rule of thumb. I’m not marrying her mother, I’m marrying her: I want to know what she’s like — then I’ll get to know her. Because her mother might have virtues she doesn’t, and will never have. Small comfort to give me, you know, if she’s not (???) — You know: “her mother sure kept a nice house, but look at this (heap?)” Alright? Yes sir ,,,,
Question:
“I have a (second?) question. (???) How long do you think a Christian ,,, both are Christians ,,, How long do you think a Christian should, you know, date a Christian girl before he would think upon marriage?”
Answer:
I don’t think you can legislate that. The length of time will be determined by many many variable factors. Suppose the fellow & girl we’re talking about, as in the case of what’s happened in our own assembly, have attended the same church, for a year, two, three or four or five years. They’ve sat under the same ministry. They’ve had much opportunity for casual contact. They’ve shared in weekends like this. They’ve shared together in prayer-meeting; there’s been many — there have been many opportunities for general acquaintance, general knowledge. They know what their spiritual dimensions are, their spiritual perspectives, their theological concepts are; well it’s obvious that a relationship like that could develop into serious courtship and commitment and engagement — legitimately so — much quicker than something, say, [if] two of you may meet here this weekend, and begin to correspond, and you live miles apart, and you begin to share letters. But letters are a very poor basis to really understand someone; maybe someone has no gift of expression and only one tenth of their virtue is coming through the pen — someone else — they’ve got ten times more virtue in the pen than they do in themselves. In that case the period of courtship would be much longer. And there are so many variables; too many variables to say: “You must court for at least three months, or six months.” I think it’s safe to say — it’s safe to say — it’s better to err by being a little cautious and waiting a little longer to commit yourself, than to get burnt. But I think in every relationship where it’s developed to the place where there’s really some measure of self-disclosure, then it’s unfair for a fella to keep the girl, if she’s of marriageable age, just hanging there in a state of limbo, betwixt & between. And I’ve had to talk to some of our fellows about that, and in one case I know it’s prevailed — and now it’s (?? inaudible). I ain’t lookin’ at nobody! I can just feel the heat from his red face. You're still my friend, Roger? This is their first anniversary,,, one week ,,, they’ve been married now. Alright. Alright — further questions ,,, yes Don(John?Tod?) ,,,
Question:
One of the things that kinda pops up with being in school is the idea of, a "Trinity Community Date", where a bunch of guys ,,,(???))) ,,, the idea of putting your ego on the line with them: "will you go out with me?" or "would you like to spend the evening together?" (???))) "Hey, we're doing such & such, would you like to come along? ,,, (???)) ,,,,, always that way, and there's never any more of, um, you know, that personal contact,,,(???),, you would comment on that? (Male voice, parts indiscernible.)
Answer:
Yes. Yes. This is a very vital matter that Bob has brought up, that it is an ideal situation if possible to get eligible males and females together, in a generally structured situation, that is not one-on-one. To share basic Christian perspectives — much like the Friday night class that, you know, that a number of you go to back at Trinity. However, however, this situation can't remain static. One of two things happens; either you begin to feel uncomfortable in that kind of mixed situation, or, when you get negative polarity next to positive polarity — somethin’ gonna happen! So what happens is — and I think this is,,, we see it happening in our own situation — you know, I mean I’ve had a number of guys come to me in the past few weeks, all of them attend that Friday night class. I ain’t squeelin’ but I’ve had ‘em comin', saying, “what do I do pastor? I can no longer just look at a dozen Christian girls, but I find my eyes going to one amongst those girls. See? So that this then — and this is what’s good with it — it gives you that non-structured situation to begin to see people in a general way, but then it will lead to the singling out of that one or two you would like to strike a deeper acquaintance with. And that’s perfectly normal & natural; and people should not see it [as]: “oh, our situation's getting spoiled: now some want to go one-on-one.” See? No no. It is abnormal for people of marriageable age to be content with mixed social groups. If you can be content with that you probably have the gift of celibacy. I’ve said to my wife time after time — I’ve said “honey, am I some kind of a wicked old man,,,” I’ve said “man, if I was sitting here in Trinity Church a single man, with the available girls, with the character traits that I’ve seen in many of them, I would at least have tried with about three or four of them” — whether I’d have gotten to first base I don’t know, but just to sit & not try ,,, ?! Really, it’s an anomaly to me, and it leads me to believe that there are these problems, because the order of the day is disrupted domestic circumstances, and sexual perversion, and lack of identity of maleness & femaleness; there are these fears that are indisposing people — “short-circuiting” I guess is the best way,,, “short-circuiting” their normal God-given maturation in this whole area of desiring someone of the opposite sex, etc. And that’s why I hope a weekend like this will help to mend some of those circuits, so that you begin to send out the right measure of signals. Alright? Bob? Does that ,,,, ? Yes sir,,,
Question/Comment:
(male voice, parts indiscernible)
Answer:
Well (????) see if we can help.
Question/Comment:
(male voice, parts indiscernible)
Answer:
Yes, I know you are brother; the laughter is really just the echo of other’s convictions.
Question/Comment:
(male voice continues, parts indiscernible)
Answer:
I had my ego-wounding before I came ,,, :-)
Question/Comment:
(male voice continues, parts indiscernible)
Answer:
Yes. Well I think this is where proper pastoral counseling and proper pastoral perspective is so essential. I think it’s high time in our evangelical churches, and our reformed churches as well, that we come head-on with this matter of singleness; that’s what I’ve tried to do in preparing these lectures — to come at the thing head-on. It’s a problem, and it’s a real problem; and it’s really with us right now. And I think we need to get rid of some of our unBiblical concepts & hang-ups & some of our Victorian reservations in these things. And I don’t have all the answers but I think at least this is a start to get it flushed out — where we’re not embarrassed to talk about our singleness, and the peculiar problems and burdens of our singleness. And the peculiar things that you’ve mentioned, you know, and you’re saying in essence, ‘why, yes I would like to put myself down where there are more eligible girls — but — if I do is it immediately — am I — you know — immediately marked off as a Woman-Hunter? You know — am I going to scatter the women like sheep before an angry bear?, you see, and that’s a real problem. But I think here — again — if these perspectives are being dealt with properly at the eldership level — and trying to give more directives such as were given here, then less and less I should think this problem would exist. But that’s a very very profoundly disturbing question that I think we need to wrestle with. Now I’ve come to the position where I no longer am at all embarrassed to do some cooperatives match-making. In other words, I have never come up to any fellow in the church & said: “now look ,,, I think you ought to start taking a shine to her” — I mean to me that’s none of my business. But if fellows come to me with this whole matter & say “boy, I just don’t know, & I wonder this, I wonder that” — then it’s not beyond me to say “well look, I’ve known this one & this one for X number of years; here’s her virtues, here’s her vices, here’s the thing,, man I’d give it try with her.” And several of those have eventuated in marriage. Now I’m not going to — see I’ve kidded you about this — but Roger’s interest in Jane preceded my giving him a push in certain areas. So he was in the way before I nudged him; I just nudged him a little bit. But there are one or two instances where under God I was able actually, in a sense, to take the fellas hand & girl’s hand & put [them] together & say “now walk a bit and begin to get to know each other” where I’ve seen those hands joined at a marriage altar. And I don’t feel I was carnal in doing that anymore than Abraham’s servant who was sent out of the Lord to get a wife for Isaac. I think there’s a matter of God using the means. And I think we need at this point, you see, if our pastors and elders will see this dimension, and we’ll feel that we can have them as a liaison able to help them. They can’t choose a mate for us. Now here again, some are fearful of their ability to make a good decision — I’ve had some want me to choose a husband or wife — I say “wait a minute man I’m not takin’ that on me. Because, if you end up with a mess, then you’re going to blame me.” And you know, I don’t want that thing; I’ve got enough monkeys on my back without that. Does this help? I don’t have all the answers, but at least I can ,,,
Comment:
(male voice continues, parts indiscernible)
Reply/answer:
Yeah. I mean I think it’s pretty well understood — you girls would know better, you know, because you talk together, and things that you wouldn’t normally share with fellas, or even with your elders. But I think it’s pretty well known that when you have a single girl who moves from somewhere else and comes in to Trinity [Baptist Church], it’s not just for the ministry of the Word — I mean isn’t that pretty well understood by you girls? Or isn’t it? Huh? Well maybe ??? See I’m reading in what I know, I mean I’ve had people write me, who’ve shared this problem; they’ve said “at least there are more fellas up in your area than where we are; would there be any objection to our coming?” I’ve said “No, why should there be?” And we’ve tried to give them counsel. So I think it’s a legitimate area of pastoral concern. Alright further questions — yes John (Tom?Don?)
Question:
(male voice, parts indiscernible)
Answer:
Yes, if we has scars from bad associations, then there are several things. Number one, is simply to observe happy families. And that’s been a joy. We’ve had two or three marriages in Trinity in the past two or three years that have been the direct result of exposure to happy couples. People that I could parade here today who would say — well I know he wouldn’t mind me using him ,,, I’ll use Keith Bates (Gates?) as an example you see of someone who said he’d determined he wouldn’t be married probably ever, if not for years. He got living in Geneva house — he saw John & Carly Spence — he said “man this is the greatest.” And the Lord began to purge away those fears and it wasn’t long before the Lord brought him & Christy together, and they’ve been married now for a year. And I could say two — yeah, I know of at least two or three others and I could name their names as examples of that very thing. So the total exposure — here again is God’s wisdom in putting us in the Church — here’s the healing power of the Church: you see happily married couples. You know you see old duffers like myself married 18 years, and uh,, really! It’s not just talking — you know — you could fool people in the street like this, but I’m talking to people who live there — you know, you see the interaction of the families. And that has a wonderful way of saying “it doesn’t need to be like ‘that’, this is what God’s grace can make it.” And then I think secondly you need to fill your mind with the Biblical norms: read Ephesians 5, read 1 Peter 3, read the story of the, of that beautiful relationship with Isaac & Rebekah, & how the Lord brought them together. Then read books like Design for Christian Marriage by Harvey Small, so that your mind is being renewed. There's that renewing of the mind that gradually then will rebuild those circuits that have been shorted because of these past distasteful experiences. Those I think John/Don/Tom(?) some of the tangible steps you can make. Alright?
Question:
(male voice, parts indiscernible)
Answer:
We never assume anything with God, but I think we can say Dave(?) there's “presumption in favor of.” You see? Because again “His thoughts are not our thoughts”, and we only see this little bracket; God sees the whole expanse of eternity, and how we fit into that. Let me try to address myself to the question: Number one, how does a man know if God has given him the gift of celibacy? Well, I think we need to ask a prior question: what reason do I have to believe that I need that gift? For instance, if God is laying upon a man's heart a certain form of ministry, & he's already begun to show skills and aptitudes for it; be it a pioneer missionary endeavor, be it some form of work that means he's constantly on the go, etc., and there seems to be clear indication that God is fashioning him for a certain career,,, and if on the surface it seems that marriage is incompatible with that career,,, alright, now he's got to wrestle this thing through: either the career must change to fulfill the Biblical norms, or, God must give me the grace to pursue this career, in his will, to His glory, while giving me the ability to remain single. And then as he prays, God will help him to be continent. That does not mean that God will make a eunuch out of him and neuter his sexual desire. Paul said “I buffet my body and keep it under”; and I believe he's referring there, among other things, to his own legitimate sexual desire. He said “he that hath not power over his own body” ,,, well,, some do; but it's power over a body that's still crying. You see that's why the idea that “marriage is a cure-all for all sexual problems ,,, therefore, when I'm married, everything will be alright.” No. If you can't control your sexual appetites now, marriage is not going to be a cure-all. Because disciple needs to be exercised within marriage. Marriage doesn't make a physically attractive male non-attractive now, if you're a woman; or a physically attractive woman non-attractive to a man. Your hormones can get stirred up inside or outside of marriage, you see? So that if in your actual situation if a person finds grace from God to remain continent; he is not committing fornication; he is not so distracted by his sexual drive. Some people just come to the place where the distraction is overbearing; just the sheer physical pressure. And he's got the (???) for nights on end, etc. Well then it's obvious God is not giving them the gift of continence. And therefore they need actively to seek a wife, and if necessary change the career to fit that married state.
And then, what was the other question? there was another part of it that ,,,,
Question:
(male voice, parts indiscernible)
Answer:
Yes. Yes. Then I think there's a presumption in favor of the fact that you're going to need a wife, and therefore you need to make this a matter of prayer, and ask God to prepare you to be a husband. Because marriage ,,, you see 1 Corinthians 7 must never be wrenched loose from Ephesians 5 [and] Genesis 1 & 2. And I've seen some guys that had the attitude: “man I gotta get me a wife 'cause I'm burning with passion” — because a wife was nothing but some kind of a passion-reliever. I mean that's all they looked upon ,,, well that is a Pagan notion. The same Paul who wrote 1 Corinthians 7 wrote Ephesians 5. And until a man is prepared to take on the responsibilities of selfless love in all of it's dimensions, he's not in a position to take a wife. And there is a phrase I use with the fellas when I have premarital counseling: “Don't plan a honeymoon until you're ready to live with the implications of the marriage bed.” And the implications are these: the moment a relationship is consummated and the two become one flesh in the covenant of self-commitment — “a man shall leave his father & mother and cleave to his wife” — now what he's saying is, “from here on in: you are an extension of me. I will be as solicitous for your well-being as I am for my own” — That's Ephesians 5. “So ought men to love their wives as constituted their own bodies,” that's the proper understanding of the passage. Christ's body is his church; he nourishes & cherishes us because we're a part of him. Now he says, “husbands, you nourish & cherish that woman; the totality of her being, physically, spiritually, mentally, psychologically, emotionally. Every part of her is to be nourished as being a part of yourself.” I say to the fellas: “don't you dare go to a marriage bed till you're ready to live with its implications.” For once there's the two/one flesh relationship, she is now an extension of me; and that's an awesome responsibility. And if a guy's problem is simply a case of jitters, and, you know, he just wants his wife to get rid of his jitters, then I say: “brother, you just better go out & start jogging three miles to get rid of your jitters, until you're ready to take a wife.” Now I mean that seriously, because it's wrong, & I've seen the 1 Corinthians 7 [passage] abused, abused, frightfully. Alright? further questions,,, Yes sir,,,
Question:
(male voice, parts indiscernible)
Answer:
Interracial marriages? I see absolutely nothing in the Word of God that condemns an inter-racial marriage. I do see that the word of God teaches, and condemns, a mixed marriage as far as a Christian & a non-Christian. I also see that the word of God tells us we're not to tempt the Lord. And therefore an interracial marriage would be non-desirable only to the extent that many marriages within the same race would be undesirable. There are certain things about it that would not be expedient. For instance, if there's such a diversity of cultures. That would be true with two Caucasians. If there's such a diversity of cultural perspectives that people can't be locked in to each other's wave length, then they ought not to marry. But to me the racial issue is no more vital than those principles. So whatever would make a good Christian marriage, in the case of “Boy-A” & “Girl-B,” to me their racial identity is inconsequential. Now there's a second area that we must be concerned about, & that is the matter of our particular calling & station in life. For instance, if I were sensing that God had called me to minister, say, in the deep South, it would be unlikely that God would have me minister there, & take to myself a black woman as my wife. Conversely, there are situations where an interracial marriage is a tremendous impetus to the Gospel. I know a situation where a missionary friend of mine, laboring in the Philippines, and took a Filipino wife. And this gave him great entree to the people; it was his way, in their eyes, of saying “you people are so precious in my sight that I'll take one of you to stand by my side for life.” An interracial marriage there was a great advancer of the cause of the Gospel. But these are the things that must be wrestled with. As far as it being sinful for one person of one race to marry another, I don't think there's a shred of evidence in the word of God. And there's some good evidence that that whole problem with Moses & Miriam & Aaron in this whole area ,,, & God vindicated Moses' choice of a woman that was probably a black woman. Of course that goes down hard with some people, and on the other hand you've got young people now where that's supposed to be the “in” thing: see, I prove I'm real avant-guard if I marry a black man or a black woman, whatever race they are. Well a Christian you see he's beyond that; he's not out to prove anything, except the good & acceptable & perfect will of God. Okay? Alright? time for a few more questions ,,, Doug?Don?John?
Question:
(male voice, parts indiscernible)
Answer:
Well again, Don, it's not so much what the differences are as one's ability to cope with those. You see? Sometimes the differences can be tremendously enriching. Tremendously enriching, if the person is flexible. But now, if their whole mentality & psychology & emotional life is so bound to a given way of doing things, and they are very provincial: “this is our way, & our way is the right way.” See, that's “provincialism”. To say: “this is my way, and it's good, but it's simply our way & there are alot of other ways that are equally good” ,,, that's a broad person. But I've met narrow people who identify their way with the best way. For if you get two people under the same roof with two sets of “their way” being the best way ,,, BOOM! You know? So that, again, it's not even so much whether there is a different cultural background, as how one is adapting to that, how one views that. And those things come out very very shortly, Don, in any kind of the development of a relationship. It becomes very very evident. For instance, when I go to Scotland, when I go to England, when my British friends come over here ,,, I'm sure this will be true when I go to Pakistan next Spring; there are certain people who are what you would call the “type-cast” individual of that culture. You know, we all conjure up the typical Scottie, right? the shorter, stockier man, with thick hair, & the real b-u-r-l-y speech, you see. Now there are some who are like that, & their Scottish way of doing things, or their English way of doing things — South England — North England — you know you have all kinds of stripes — even in England you don't want to type-cast the average Britisher. But what will happen is; some of them — it's obvious though they like that way, & they enjoy being that way, they have no notion that that's the only way to be, or the only way to think. And they have a broadness, a breadth, and a catholicity of thinking. However there are other people — they are shocked — in every expression of their Christian life & faith — unless you do it their way you aren't doing it theright way, the spiritual way. Well that's the narrow kind of provincialism. And this of course is the image that the ugly American conveys, you see, when Americans go around [saying]: “(???)-->indiscernible (???) ,,, you get over that.” (??) So that's true in a human relationship between a man and a woman. And if there is that diversity with flexibility, it's a wonderful thing. As I intimated, I came from a very stable Christian home, ten children, second-oldest, like a second father to my brothers & sisters. Performed the marriage (???) for five of my little sisters. All kinds of security. You see? I never thought about: “am I loved?” It never entered my mind, I mean, I was loved, so what, what's the big deal? You know, I mean there was lots of security. While (well?) my wife, coming from a totally different background, this has greatly enriched our lives & my sympathy. Because I have been able to read the world through her eyes, and in turn, she has been able to read through my eyes things that she never saw. So this diversity, has been tremendously helpful to our enrichment. Okay? Alright, any further questions — yes?
Question:
(voice, mostly indiscernible)
Answer:
Yes, I think, if I read rightly what you're saying, perhaps we should phrase the question this way: should we, (if we've finished high school & spent a couple of years at home), should we begin to think in terms of weaning ourselves away from our parents' oversight & control, maybe by getting an apartment with another Christian gal & beginning to develop some independence? Well I think here again, you can't generalize. Some are able to develop their independence while still living with their parents. The parents are mature enough to encourage this development. So they begin to back-off in decision making & the rest. And maybe this person will come — this girl or fella — & say: “Mom & Dad, what do you think ,,,?” And they'll say “what are you asking us for? You're 21 years old, that's your problem.” And they'll bend the child's nose, because they realize that child must begin to develop independence. And likewise the person recognizes it. So they can make that transition from dependence, to a much more mature independence, very naturally, within the home. But there are some situations where the parents can't make the adjustment. (???)--> “That's still my little baby” (???) I mean they just still look upon you as their little girl, or their little boy. And therefore, the only way they can make the adjustment, so that you can have “your good not evil spoken of” — otherwise, every time you're asserting a legitimate area of independence they look upon it as indifference or rebellion. And “your good is being evil spoken of.” Well the Bible says “let not your good be evil spoken of.” The only alternative then is to move out. Explain the reasons why. And then continue to show love and concern with phone calls and visits, etc. Much the way couples have to so when they're married; when they “leave father and mother” in that final sense, “and cleave to husband or wife.” And that adjustment, you see, is not only difficult at times for the child, for the young man or young woman, but it's difficult for the parents. I mean they've invested alot of years, and a lot of time, and a lot of tears (if they're good parents). Now suddenly to start cutting those invisible umbilical cords — you know it's easy for the doctor to cut the one in the delivery room, but this one is not one: you know, there’s hundreds of cords that have been established. And now to start snipping them is not easy. So I think you need to ask yourself: “are my parents able to make the adjustment to my independence? am I able to make it under their roof? If not, in this case it might be wise for me to move out.” Does that help you get hold of (???)?
Yes, in the back, Solomon?
Question:
(male voice, parts indiscernible)
Answer:
Well again this again is a problem Solomon, that, it comes under the area of “preparation,” and, if I want to be a husband, then I must seek under God to find a situation where I can adequately provide for myself, for a wife & for a child. And may I say at this point? that I am glad that there is a turning away from this obsession with college, & white collar work, and beginning to be some appreciation of artistsan labor. Now the difficulty is that in some trades there's such a disproportionate provision made — carpenters getting, out in California, I think someone told me that last (???) it was up to 20 dollars an hour. Unbelievable. I mean it was just way out of sight! And of course this makes it difficult, because maybe [in] the machinist trade, the top dollar for a man who's worked for twenty years is five dollars an hour. And he has real skills far beyond, maybe someone going into carpentry for a few years. But, in spite of those particular problems, I think the old Jewish notion that a fella ,,, every young Jewish boy learned a trade. That's why Paul could make tents, so that he always had something to rely upon that would make him a desirable commodity in the labor market; given the ability to have something to put into the selling market that was a desirable commodity. So that's another whole area, this whole matter of “occupation” — and maybe you ought to have another retreat sometime — an “occupational retreat”, pastor Barnhart, in which we wrestle through some of these things. What does the single gal do who is praying that God will bring her “Adam” to her, but in the mean time there's no “Adam” on the horizon — she doesn't even know if there is one down underneath the horizon. What does she do? Well, this is another area, and another whole kettle of fish that needs to be faced.
Well, it's about time for us to stop, is there one last question,,,?
Question:
(voice, parts indiscernible)
Answer:
Now, see there's another element here, and this is what you girls should understand; though it would be foolish for you girls to say “I do” with a fella that you'd have to end up fully supporting, I've seen fellas who've never really settled down to serious application to their job, until they had the incentive of knowing they had to provide for a wife & the kids. And in that sense the woman and it's responsibilities were a tremendous means of grace, to make them really knuckle down. There's a sense in which they really had no reason to stick at anything before; now they realize “I've got a woman's mouth to feed,” or, “she wont even let me get a ring on her finger until I prove myself.” And some of you girls could be real helpful to some fella who begins to soft-talk you, and show real interest. You say “look buster, I don't want to be be out bringing the gravy home. You show yourself competent to stick at something, then I may let you slip a ring on my finger. But until then you just keep your ring in your pocket.” Now you've gotta be sweeter than that. Yes, pastor Barnhart?
Question/Comment:
(voice, indiscernible)
Answer/reply:
Yes, well generally speaking, lengthy engagements are not wholesome. Because if you're normal, and all your systems are tuned-in, once you know that in principle you've already committed yourself to each other, and you're developing a real wholeness of relationship, it's awfully hard, awfully hard, to put the breaks on that relationship. Because God has made us so everything in us is being violated when there's that commitment to sharing life, and there has been developed a grass-roots affinity and perspective of life, and the world, and God, and truth, and you're together; it takes unusual discipline, iron will, and some pretty down-to-earth practical guidelines to keep that relationship from degenerating into fornication. And it's not because you're wicked it's simply because you're human. It's human. And so generally speaking lengthy engagements are not wise. So I would say to fellas, “don't slip a ring on a finger until you're prepared within a short time — unless there are unusually abnormal circumstances — to consummate that relationship.” And then as far as the other is concerned, often my counsel to couples is this: if you face realistically your financial situation, and you're willing to live within your means and scrape together for the privilege of being able to begin to live together as husband and wife, then fine, go ahead, you don't need a bank account — just so long as you're not tempting God. There is a reasonable means of supply with your present circumstances, and you're gonna be content, maybe to, you know, have orange crates for dresser drawers for awhile. And I know couples that have done that. When we first furnished our home after we were married, we were living on a shoe string. And we just went down to some old side-street in Lancaster, and found a used set of old over-stuffed out-dated furniture — fifty bucks for a whole living room set — and we paid another twenty-five bucks for some slip covers, and we furnished our living room, for seventy-five bucks. And it worked fine, until as we were able then one-by-one to begin to replace things with more substantial. So if the fella & girl share this dimension of perspective, then I think, again, because marriage is a means of grace, and the only way to learn to start living together, is to start living together. It's hard work. And there is that delicate line — you see, generally speaking the average fella or girl is not really prepared for the demands of marriage, before, at least getting close to the mid-twenties, generally speaking. And a girl always wonders, “well, boy, you know, should I have gotten it out of my system? had a couple of years in the secretarial thing, or in the hospital, or something else.” And if she has, and gets it out of her system, then it isn't so glamorous for her. Where she goes right from high school into marriage, there's always ,,, when she starts facing the same dishes, same dirty underwear, same hum-drum; many times there's a growing discontent; you know: “it's so glamorous out there.” But if she got a taste of that, & said, “look, that's nothing. I like the home with all of its hum-drum, as the place for which God has fitted me.” But now if she goes much beyond that, or if a fella goes beyond that, then they begin both to get so set in their ways that learning to live together is much harder. Because there is sort of an ossifying of your emotional and psychological joints, with the passing of the years. And some of the most difficult adjustments I have seen have been with those who have waited too long for marriage, [that is,] in the case where it's been true of both of them. If it's the case where one has already been married, and then [they] can bring into the relationship the perspectives of a previous (???).
Well, it's 12:30. Let me say we deeply appreciate the privilege of coming and ministering to you. And there's only one favor I ask in return: because the demands and preparation for this cut into regular study time, and I just couldn't think of anything but this stuff even if I tried, I still got alot of homework to do before feeling ready to preach tomorrow morning, and I would appreciate your prayers that the Lord will undertake. And I'm sure pastor Barnhart would say the same — well, he doesn't have to preach tomorrow. We're sending down one of our other pastors to preach. He's got it easy. But I have to go back and take the adult class, and preach, and I have a full afternoon of counseling tomorrow, so I would covet your prayers. Thank you so much.